Does Your Audio Match Your Video? with Lt. Gen. Bingham

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Transcript for Ep. 25 “Does Your Audio Match Your Video” with Lt. Gen. Gwen Bingham, U.S. Army (Ret.)

MAJ CATHERINE M. ROY, Communications & Marketing Specialist: Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the VMI Leader Journey.

My name is Maj. Catherine Roy, and I will be your host for a conversation with retired Lt. Gen. Gwen Bingham in this episode we’ve titled “Does Your Audio Match Your Video?”

Bingham is this year’s Binford J. H. Peay Leader-in-Residence. The VMI Center for Leadership and Ethics hosts this program and produces this podcast to educate, engage, and inspire the VMI Corps of Cadets, the greater VMI Community, and listeners like you!

Bingham’s visit coincides with this year’s leadership theme titled ‘Citizen Leaders.’ During our conversation, Bingham said that she believes leaders should communicate, coordinate, and collaborate, but which one of these does she believe is the most important?

Let’s listen in to find out!

ROY: Welcome Lieutenant General Gwen Bingham, thank you for agreeing to join us for the podcast today.

LT. GEN. GWEN BINGHAM: Thank you so much. Catherine. It's a joy to be here with you on such a beautiful fall day.

ROY: Yes, it is a beautiful day! We'd like to know a little bit about your background. 


ROY: So, if you could tell us you know, what rank you last had, and a little bit about your leadership journey.

BINGHAM: Okay, thanks so much. Well, first, let me just say that I am an army brat. So, I'll begin with that. I'm the proud daughter of an army, retired army first sergeant, and his pride my mom. I was born in Troy, Alabama, as was my dad, who moved shortly after I was born to his duty station at Fort Hood, Texas. We lived there for 10 years and then moved to Fort Sam Houston for another three years. So, all totaled, I lived in Texas 13, my first 13 years growing up. He retired and moved back to Alabama where I went to high school and college. And then my duty stations over the years took me back to Fort Hood, Texas, wherewith my own ID card, wear my own uniform for another six-plus years. So, all total about 20 years in Texas. So, I like to sort of begin to say that I have Alabama roots and I also have Texas roots. I came into the army on four-year Army ROTC scholarship. I believed that I would fulfill that obligation with four years and not a day longer, as I like to say. And oops, something happened along the way, Catherine. I like to tell people I fell in love not only with a man I met and married now 38 years ago this month, but I fell in love with his vocation called the US Army and I've been the better for it. And so, my first lesson if there would be, would be to leaders out there, young leaders to never say never because you just might be surprised and fall in love with something that really becomes your passion. And you'll know it's your passion when it doesn't feel like work. And that's just sort of a good indication of that. So, I've been in the army before I retired. I came in, as I said before, and ended up staying 38 and some change. And now my husband and I live out, just outside of Austin, Texas, and have been retired now for just over two years. So, it's been great.

ROY: Well congratulations for such a long and wonderful career as well as your upcoming anniversary.

BINGHAM: Yes, thank you so much! On the 19th.

ROY: What was it, would you say, that you fell in love with in the army? So as our cadets listen to this, you know, what might they expect from a career in the army? 

BINGHAM: Yeah, that's a great question. And when I say fell in love, I literally mean that. I have really come to appreciate that I'm a people person. My dad and let me regress a little bit just to say I'm the filly figured out. I'm the perfect combination of both my mom and my dad. My dad never met a stranger and people loved him. He was just very people-oriented. My mother was a very devout Christian woman, raised us five children and she taught us the Golden Rule, treat others the way we would want to be treated, and she taught us a love of God and a love of fellow man. And so, throughout my, our household and, and throughout my growing up; that was kind of foundational and fundamental to kind of who I am. So, the combination of trying to be a good Christian and also being a people person, really is what ended up keeping me in the army and really helping me find my passion.

Over the years, I've just really had such a strong desire to get to know people, particularly people who didn't look like me. I was always in fascinated, enchanted with people of all races, all cultures, ethnicities, the more different we seem to be the more it just really drew me to wanting to have an appreciation of who that person was. And I think that's what I really found inside the military was not only the opportunity to, to learn and grow but the opportunity to get to know people who were my battle buddies on my left and battle buddies on my right that I that would really become not only teammates but also good friends over time. And so, just that strong pull and love for being a part of something bigger than me as an individual. And I like to use the acronym for a team that I, I've heard it said before. TEAM: together, everyone achieves more. And I really do believe fundamentally that's how we achieve mission successes. And no matter whether you're in the military, like I stayed a part of, my dad before me, for he was in for 20 plus years, or you find work elsewhere I think it's incredibly important to be able to have this sense of working together as a team, where you are accomplishing not only what you are told to do individually, but you're also adding to the greater good of that team that corporation that organization that you are affiliated with.

ROY: Sounds like you had a very strong sense and found a lot of joy in servant leadership. Would that be accurate?

BINGHAM: That's, that's probably very accurate. And I wouldn't have it described it that way at the time so many years ago. But what I'm you know, what I get a high on his truly plugging into a new organization, finding it at one level, and then being able to do my part as a leader to grow that organizational, organization incrementally to a higher level of success. So, when I talk to you about Jo Ann Dunwoody's book "A Higher Standard" I think about you know, a higher standard in terms of finding an organization and taking it to the next level of excellence as a goal and something ultimately that we can do, again, working together as a team.

ROY: How would you say that your people-first focus helps accomplish that mission?

BINGHAM: Yeah. I had a boss who once told me many, many years ago and it was so profound at the time he told me I, I've never forgotten that and he said to me, he says, "Bingham," He says, "you can have all manner of ribbons and awards and ribbons on your chest," and he said, "That's good." He said, "but at the end of the day, nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care." And I've never forgotten that and if you think about even your own lifestyle, and perhaps your walk of life, you just want to understand that somebody cares about me as an individual. They see me as an individual and may have a desire for me as an individual to be successful one, and, and more importantly, to grow. I always liken it to I'm trying to work myself out of a job. So, if I've been the commander of an organization, I'm looking to coach, teach, train, mentor young people to follow me one day and to share some of the challenges I've had along the way and to strengthen them for times that will be challenging because it's not a matter of if you will be challenged, it's when. Those times will come.

ROY: So, that kind of leads me to another question that I wanted to ask you about or get your feedback on is the role of sponsoring, mentoring, and being a champion. It sounds like if you're nurturing those relationships, I would think that if somebody was investing in me that way it would inspire me to work harder because you see the...

BINGHAM: Potential?

ROY: ... affirmation of your efforts you're being recognized. Can you talk a little bit about that mentorship, a champion of people, and sponsoring people? 

BINGHAM: Yes, that is a great question. And then there are differences between each of those roles: sponsors, champions, advocates, mentors. And not to really get too much in the technical aspects of the differences. But if I as your leader, as a leader, it's my responsibility to train you. It's my responsibility to give you good leadership, to help you maintain your equipment, and to train you and to care for you and sustain you and your family. As a leader, to me, that's fundamentally what I get paid to do. And whether or not that's true or false that's what I when being them have accepted that role and I enjoy that role. And to that end of coaching, teaching, training you, mentoring you to be your better self to grow, to learn, and to get to the next levels, I'm going to do what I can do to put you in a position where one, you can achieve success and two, you can learn and grow. That's fundamental as foundational and that's very, very important. Sometimes, I've seen where leaders miss the boat, subordinate leaders. They have a set group of people that they, you know, this is my top, you know, my top guy or my top gal, and I'm going to focus on just them. Well, you miss the masses, when you only focus on the people that are already strong horses so to speak. You want to get to really the bowels of your organization and bring up everyone to another level of growth. And professional growth such that the whole organization is then lifted up to a high level of performance. As a mentor, and I often found that counseling my direct reports, I asked my direct reports to counsel their subordinates, etc., etc. And so, I owe you written feedback. I owe you verbal feedback. In the military, particularly the army that I grew up in, it was a requirement that you gave quarterly mentoring. You had quarterly mentor or counseling sessions, where I tell you, Hey, here's my observations of your performance, here's your strengths. Here's your areas that are deficient. And here's a strategy that I would offer for you to improve those deficiencies. And we'd have a conversation. It just can't be one way. It's got to be a two-way dialogue. The person I'm counseling, my, my subordinate has to feel comfortable being able to share with me what his or her concerns are, questions that they might have. Because at the end of that, what you're doing is you're building a relationship. And the most critical aspect of building a relationship is a short five-letter word that begins with T. And I think you probably know, Catherine, what that is, it's trust. If I can't trust you, and you can't trust me, our relationship is really not going anywhere. It just won't. But if you trust me, and you listen to what I have to say, and you accept what I have to say in terms of how I'm observing you as a, as a subordinate, and you make those changes, it can be really fulfilling and gratifying just to see your own self growing to that next level that we're both aiming for.

ROY: Here at VMI we have what's called the VMI Leader Journey and it's VMI's system for developing the cadets as they are here throughout their four-year career. One of the things that they, one of the values that they have is trust, along with fairness. So, it sounds to me like maybe they're, being fair as you're doing regular feedback with your folks, giving them not only the critiques and the observations, but you're also giving them some advice, here's how you can improve. 


ROY: That probably has a big role in, in developing that atmosphere of trust.

BINGHAM: Yeah. That's a great point. And to that point, there's no one-size-fits-all. I mean, what I tell you, Catherine, could be different than what I tell Bobby or Susie because you might be both at different stages of your professional development. And so, there's no one size fits all. Nothing beats failure, but a try, and I always tell people try. If at first, you don't succeed, you know, just keep trying because that you will find success eventually. And I think really that give-and-take that communication is just so critical. I can't, a subordinate must feel, empowered, and must feel that there is enough trust between he and his supervisor that he can really share what's truly on his mind, his or her mind because without that, again, you don't have a relationship that's long-lasting for sure.

ROY: Changing topics a little bit, this year's Center's theme and VMI's theme for leadership is citizen leaders. We talked a lot about how you spent a career in the military, which is an obvious role for someone who wants to be a citizen leader. And then we talked a little bit about the VMI journey. We have what's called the three-legged stool. So, the whole-person development of the academics, military training, and the physical training. What is your advice to young people on what competencies, skills, and behaviors they ought to develop now to maximize their potential as future citizen leaders?

BINGHAM: Yeah, that's a great question. And gosh, we could talk a long time probably about that question. I, it was funny because when, when I crossed over to the general officer ranks, I had so many people asked me to what do you attribute your successes to? And first and foremost, I give thanks to God for just really all that he has enabled me to be, see, and do. I give thanks to my, my husband, my, our two kids, our extended families. And I'm so grateful for so many, many people whose paths have crossed mine because you just cannot achieve success by yourself, lest you fool yourself. And so, that would be my first thought is to be grateful and to show and share gratitude with the people who are, have helped you along your own journey. Probably begins with your parents or your caretakers, your significant others, perhaps even... be, just began every day with an attitude of gratitude. And I think that would be my first and foremost thought.

I think it's vitally important to have a positive attitude. In all my Bingham's Top 10 + 4 stopped templates for I think that's the first one of my, my top 10 is to have a, keep a positive attitude because I think a positive attitude will take us all one-half the distance and I know it's just important. As I look back on my 38-year journey, I think it really at the end of the day, really speaks to being competent as well as having confidence. Those two are important because if you want to be a leader, no matter whether you're in the military or outside the military, you have to have both. You have to be competent, and you have to have confidence in yourself, otherwise, you're not going to get others to follow you anywhere. And I would think another one would be empathy. I think you need to have empathy for humanity just in general terms, but you don't know the walk of life that people come from. There are people who come from backgrounds that are different from ours. There are people that come from good homes, broken homes, have been products of abuse, etc. And so, not knowing that is to be empathetic with all whom you have the opportunity to associate with. And I use the three C's communicate, coordinate and collaborate. You need to be good at all three of those. But the one that coming, I keep coming back to, Catherine, is probably you need to be a collaborator. And you need to get good at it because collaboration is probably the most, the strongest of those three C's communicate is important. Being having the ability to coordinate, but strategically to get where you want to go, you need to be able to collaborate because again you and I can't do it by ourselves. And I often talk about partnerships. That kind of goes hand-in-hand with that collaboration that's so vital in our society that today.

ROY: How would you collaborate? In other words, do you have a method for collaborating? Do you have a way of identifying people who would be key members at the table, so to speak?

BINGHAM: That's a great question. I think it begins with the recognition of the talents of individuals sitting around the table or inside of your of your small, your team, your, your greater organization. It's a, it's an ability to recognize the strength that each one has. That's number one because everybody brings something to the table. You often as a leader might have to figure that out and find out what their strength is. But the beauty about being a part of something greater than yourself as an individual is recognizing the strengths that individuals bring and have and then being able to take those talents, skills, and strengths and use them in a way that's collaborative in effort and then helps to produce the outcome that you're ultimately trying to achieve. And it's just, it's just been fascinating to me over the years to, and that brings me back to the people-person that I am because I enjoy getting to know people. And so, you can't be hands-off about the people in the organization. Some people grapple with that because they have more of an introvert personality. I'm probably extrovert extraordinaire. I get that from my dad, but... didn't know stranger, right? Just a desire to get to know people but once you understand who you have sitting inside of your organization or inside of your team and understand their strengths, it just is fascinating to see how those, you can work the strengths to achieve your greater goal.

ROY: You've mentioned that you've got like Bingham's top four...

BINGHAM:  Top-10 plus four, yeah. Well, um, so, Bingham's Top-10 + Four, I guess I made general officer in 2010. I came out of the promotion list for one-star. And so many people were asking me, again, you know, to what do you attribute your success and I really started giving it some, some thought I took a couple of weeks and, and at the time David Letterman was, you know, popular on, on nighttime TV. So, I fashioned it after, you know Bingham's Top 10, right?  A little after David Letterman's and the plus-four just for the nuggets that I've come across as I was executing or you know, live in my journey, but stay positive is the first one on there. The second one's do the best job you can no matter the job. There is no such thing as a bad job. And I truly believe that. We could probably talk a day about that. Seek the tough jobs is third. Work productively every day. Learn your craft well and read. The fifth one is be a team player 24/7. The sixth one that is be relevant and value-added to every team you're a part of. And that's critical and I won't I'll just go through these and you can talk about any of them that that piques your interest. The seventh one is maximize your opportunities to diversify your portfolio. In others other words, broaden your job skills and attributes via broadening assignments. So, whether it's broadening assignments inside the military, or you're taking on tangible jobs that are related outside in a different walk of life, I think you should do that. The more broad and we are, the better we can perform across the board. And number eight is keep yourself physically, mentally, and spiritually fit. The ninth one, which I love, is build relationships and sustain them. That's a key and I hope you'll ask me something about that. And then the 10th one is remember the golden rule. Do unto others the way that you want to be done unto and treat everyone with dignity and respect. So that's my plus, my Top 10. 

My, my plus four is, okay, do the right thing. Even when no one is looking. Your audio must match your video. That's another one we should talk about. The 11th or the second plus four is nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care and I think we just mentioned that. And then the third one was we are public servants be proud yet humble, always because I think humility is a good thing. And then the plus four, the fourth one of that is exercise professionalism and sound judgment on social media venues. We could talk we could talk a long time about that. So, there you have it.

ROY: I think that goes with the audio matching your video, too.

BINGHAM:  Exactly.

ROY:  I guess we'll talk a second about that the audio...

BINGHAM: Yeah, yeah. So, there was a ragin' Cajun three-star general named Lieutenant General Russ Honoré. Remember him during the hurricane? And, and he really was just a phenomenal general officer. I didn't know him well, but when I was first assigned to Fort Hood, Texas he was the first cavalry division's ADCS (Assistant Division Commander for Sustainment).  And he was given a professional development session with young leaders and he, I just remembered him making the comment. He says, "Your audio don't match your video." And aside from the fact that he had a funny voice, I thought about what he was saying. In other words, I can't tell a soldier, as an example, to do physical training and get up at six o'clock in the morning and do physical training, if I'm laying in the rack myself. It doesn't compute. In other words, my audio doesn't match my video. So, what I'm telling you to do, doesn't match what I'm doing. And I never forgot it. That was probably 1992, '95 when he had that position so that several years later in 2000 when I became a battalion commander at Fort Lee, I started using that and I and I tribute it to him. Having heard at first from him, your audio must match your video. And so, that speaks volumes. And it really sort of serves as a NorthStar to guide my own what I say and what I do. And so, I'll, I'll plant that one with you this morning with the thought that when we tell subordinates to do something we must be willing to do it ourselves lest our audio doesn't match or video. 

ROY: Yeah, I call that walking the talk 

BINGHAM: Walking the talk, absolutely. Yeah, you win the respect of your subordinates when they see that you're willing to do what you tell them to do.

ROY: In the leadership course they also point that out or highlight that under [one of VMI’s Leader Journey values] lead by example.

BINGHAM: Exactly. That's a good one.

ROY: And then talk a little bit about the building and sustaining relationships and talk


ROY: And how you're a relationship kind of person. Empathy, building trust, but the sustaining relationship, I think, is something we haven't touched on. 

BINGHAM: Yeah, that's key. And I often liken relationships to flowers. And what must you do with flowers? You must water them every so often lest they die, right? And so, relationships are kind of like that. Once you establish a relationship or build it, you want to sustain that relationship, because eventually, that's going to go hand-in-hand with that collaboration that I'm talking about. So, as young cadets here as you get to know your fellow cadets, you know, across your academic subjects or across sports, if you might be in a sport, it's a good thing to not only establish but to build and build upon that relationship because you just never know one year, two years, three years from now, you might be teaming up with that person in another role here, even at that at the Institute. And first sure out inside the military and even outside the military as I am retired now two years, I've been able to have people that I've known either, you know, 40 years ago, and the army or that I've met just recently over the last couple of years and be able to use those formative relationships to collaborate and partner and I think that's so vitally important.

ROY: Yeah, we, like at the leadership conference, that's open to a general audience. We invite a lot of schools to come here for that very reason, the networking.

BINGHAM: Exactly.

ROY: For our cadets, it's not just about them learning the arc of the content that we have, but it's also about them building relationships with folks who may not commission and so being, because they may have to work with them one day.

BINGHAM: Exactly. Yeah, it's, it often comes sooner than even you realize that it might even pique its head to where it's just, you know, you look out in an audience, and you go, oh, that's so and so' from, you know, one year ago or five years ago. Those times will come, and they'll come more often than you think. I've had a number of former or officers who have said, you know, come back to me and said, you know, ma'am, I'm, I find myself in a challenging predicament right now, can you help? And if we've continued that relationship over time, I can attest to, you know, Johnny, Bobby, or Susie's performance and be able to help lend credibility to whatever predicament or situation they find themselves in. I've had a number of folks who have said, Hey, ma'am, I'm, I'm retiring out of the army, will you be a resource and a reference for me? Absolutely. I'll be happy to do that for you. And so, a lot of times it's just, you know, like those kinds of examples. But then again, you know, you might be working in, and I'll tell you this, literally, when I was interviewing for my first role sitting on a board, and I was asked by a friend of mine, would you be interested in considering this role? And I said, well, sure, is really the friend was they had become more of a mentor to me and was really probably the driving force for me at least getting a seat at the interview table, to be able to interview well for the, for the position. So again, just being able to sustain those types of relationships is key. But I think the optimum word is build them, but then sustain them. And that's what we're talking about.

ROY: Yeah, it seems very important. And then finally, some of your thoughts about being relevant that was in your Top 10 + Four being relevant, I guess where you're planted or, you know, within whatever roles you may have? 

BINGHAM: Well, that's a good follow on and, Catherine, when I talk about being relevant and value-added, and I think those two kinds of flow together and that's the way I use them in my, in my Top 10, being relevant and value-added to every team because if you're not if you don't, or if you're not, it's kind of like someone told me another acronym NFL is 'not for long.' You will be off the team pretty quick if you're not relevant and value-added to a team. I mean, think about it. We're in the football season. That's kind of apropos, but it's, it’s being able to lend assistance to your team Together Everyone Achieves more kind of that acronym. And as a thought of you really not necessarily showcasing in a braggadocious way your talent but certainly owning your talent and when you see that your teammate is faltering, you know, being able to that's and that's what we when I talk about being relevant and value-added, is someone who takes the initiative to do work that we all know needs to get done. Or they have a talent that is is formidable and let's just say you know, you do go in the military or not, and you speak a foreign language and you're around a number of dignitaries who, like, within my first few years I was around Koreans. I was stationed in Korean, Korea, and being able to speak the language. That's an added relevancy that would be critical, both in and outside of the military. So, it's really using your, your talents that you, you have, and then growing that talent base to other skill sets and competencies that lend themselves to be good for the team and the greater good of the organization.

ROY: I read, I can't remember the name of the book I read now, but it talked about having skills in other discipline and that it gives you a way of thinking or problem-solving that within your industry or sector might be uncommon. But let's say you're working, you know, in a STEM-type job, but you had a humanities background, how you bring your language skills perhaps to that job can add a nice layer of professionalism or polish on a project working in what we call it 'the band of excellence.'

BINGHAM: Yeah. And that's such a good description as you've laid it out too because I think that's what I talk about when I, when I say do the best job that you possibly can do and there's no such thing as a bad job. I also talk about broadening and broadening your, your skillset. And the way that you do that is either because you took on a second major or a minor as they call it in my day, too, but it's at the end of the day, what you're really trying to do is broaden your own job skill sets that lend, again, that relevancy and value to the organization to which you're assembled. If you were to look at my biography, I'm a logistician by trade. I came through the ranks of quartermaster, which is supply but at some point, like for instance, my command, my company command was not in a supply and service company. It was an automated data processing detachment. Now, think about that. Here I am a quartermaster supply commanding an automated data processing attachment. We have so many technicians that were computer geeks and I mean they were strong at it. And I was responsible for the mission supporting a logistical command for automated data processing. Well, I felt like a fish out of water, but I used the skills of connecting with the people who were technicians in that area and very skilled at it. And oftentimes, you will find yourself, as I like to say, burning the midnight oil to get myself up to speed so you do a lot of reading, you do a lot of on-the-job training. And it's okay. I would tell anybody if you find yourself in a job or position that you are not totally qualified technically for, that, that's like on-the-job training. So, you go after it by taking what you are very good at, which is leading people and then learning the technical aspects of those different kinds of jobs and positions. What I think was so key for me was I love learning. I love learning new things. I love, I'm an adventurer, some person just in general. So, I like going to different places.

ROY: And a sense of fearlessness to try something new and strange. 

BINGHAM: Yes. Well, I give a case in point, White Sands Missile Range. After my first assignment as a general officer as Quartermaster General at Fort Lee, I was assigned to go out to Fort or White Sands Missile Range, which is outside of Fort Bliss, but it's in New Mexico. It is the Department of Defense's largest land range and we do testing there. All kinds of like missile tests etc. And 3200 square miles of just opportunities as I like to call it. I was working with Army, Air Force, Navy, primarily. And we had a lot of institutions like NASA would come and train. Defense Threat Reduction Agency what common test there. And I just felt like a kid in a candy store and so, I was asked before I got there to be a keynote speaker for a space conference. Well, I knew nothing about space other than, you know, one small, small step for man, and one giant leap for mankind, right? And so again, I went to ground and did a little bit of homework and figured out what White Sands had done for decades and, and it, pulled it off with the help of my people put together a series of visuals, audiovisual clips of actual tests, and so the audience was dazzled because they say Oh, I remember that. And so, it just it was a big hit. But the point was, is that I probably going there was about 60-40 60% I was very, very comfortable with and 40% I wasn’t, and it didn't take me long to narrow that gap down to something that was negligible in terms of my, my experience base and capabilities but that's the beauty of the team. And I keep going back to that Together Everyone Achieves More. So, being not afraid to get out among your people in the organizations who are the experts and letting them help coach and teach me as was the case about what we did. It was just fascinating work, and I just enjoyed every minute of it. I actually was promoted my second star there. So, I really learned very, very quickly but more importantly, there was so many just phenomenal men and women who made hard and complex work looks and feel easy, but it certainly was not.

ROY: Any other words of wisdom or advice that you'd like to share? 

BINGHAM: Well... 

ROY: Because that's important.

BINGHAM: Sure. I'm just excited to be at Virginia Military Institute for now what is my second visit here. And anytime I have the opportunity to be among young people, it's always fun. I would tell you and leave them with a thought that life can, is about twists and turns. I think it's attitudinally, to that's why I think to keep a positive attitude is always a good thing. And I think that'll take us all one-half the distance and just to know that you're gonna have your share of challenges. But I have found in over 38 years of my military service that by far the opportunities far-extended the challenges that I had, I grew from the challenges, but I was very humbled and grateful, and excited all at the same time to try to make a positive difference in the lives of people who I was affiliated with. And looking back if I had to do anything different, I would say, never say four years and not a day longer. I would say, stick with it, and see where life takes you in that journey. 

ROY: Absolutely! Well, I would say you're definitely a living example of your audio matching your video. Thank you and I've enjoyed our conversation. And thank you so much for your time with us today.

BINGHAM: Thank you, Catherine. It's my pleasure.

ROY: On behalf of the VMI Center for Leadership & Ethics, we thank the following: Mr. Caleb Mynus '20 for the intro and backing music. Find more of his musical stylings on his Instagram page (@mynusofficial). Col. David Gray, USA (ret.), Director of the VMI Center for Leadership and Ethics and, of course, as always, our podcast Guests.

Find this podcast and other CLE programming information on the VMI Center for Leadership & Ethics website Follow the VMI Center for Leadership and Ethics on YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, and Instagram accounts.

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VMI: Forging 21st Century Leaders